Thursday, March 27, 2008

When is it time to give in

and change my protagonist to a nicer person. Problem is-it makes her more generic. But three agents have all found her unlikable so I have to consider changing her before I send it out to anyone else. Why do we want to like our protags? We've been down this route before on this blog but if three agents said the same thing, would you change it?

25 comments:

Clair D. said...

I've had scores of editors (no agents) reject Bo Fexler because she's caustic, bitter, and abrasive. But then there are other editors, and readers, who love her.

To me, three agents is NOT enough. Especially if they're asking to read more than a few pages...

A character who is interesting, amusing may work, even if she's not likable. And sometimes you have to find the agent who likes YOUR style.

Now, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about since my novel is unfinished and unshopped. But if I had stopped after the third time my first short story was rejected, well, I wouldn't have gotten the nine other rejections... or the acceptance.

John McFetridge said...

This article may help:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2246855,00.html

The whole thing is pretty good, but this is the most relevant part:

A great deal of nonsense is written about characters in fiction - from those who believe too much in character and from those who believe too little. Those who believe too much have an iron set of prejudices about what characters are: we should get to "know" them; they should not be "stereotypes", they should "grow" and "develop"; and they should be nice. So they should be pretty much like us. A glance at the thousands of foolish "reader reviews" on Amazon, with their complaints about "dislikeable characters", confirms a contagion of moralising niceness. Again and again, in book clubs up and down the country, novels are denounced because some feeble reader "couldn't find any characters to identify with", or "didn't think that any of the characters 'grow'".

Three really isn't that many. rethink it after thirty. And start sending queries directly to small presses that look at unagented submissions.

pattinase (abbott) said...

Thanks, guys. This really is a debilitating process. I went through it when I first started writing short stories, but I'd forgotten how lousy it is.
Would The Talented Mr. Ripley be published today? (Not that I'm comparing myself to Highsmith). And what about In the Cut?

Mystery Dawg said...

Well, I think you know how I feel on this. Its your character and you should do what you think is best.

John has some valid points from the article. Find the right agent and get that book published.

No compromising.......

Megan said...

I also think three seems like a low number.

pattinase (abbott) said...

I'm not saying I'm giving up trying at three but my thinking is if three agents don't like her, probably most editors won't either. But even at that, I guess three is not enough.

John McFetridge said...

I only have my own experience to go by, but I have found that editors and agents often think very differently.

Pretty much every agent wants the big, mainstream blockbuster, the one that will sell in mss market paperback at the airport and grocery store.

Many editors, though, especially with smaller or more 'boutique' publishers have more idiosyncratic tastes. And since they don't usually have the distribution that will get a mass market paperback into all those outlets, they concentrate on different kinds of books (often simply ones they really, really like).

I say this because no agents wanted my book (tried a lot more than three). But a small Canadian publisher picked it up and then the US rights sold to Harcourt. When I look at the Harcourt catalogue I see a lot of European books in translation and Scottish and Irish books. These haven't been bought from American agents. One conclusion could be that the editors at Harcourt are looking for the kind of crime novels that most Ameican agents aren't representing.

This may be true of many other publishers who aren't trying to score the big mainstream blockbuster every time out of the gate.

I don't even know if there are 'boutique' agents, but I guess there must be.

Sandra Ruttan said...

Agents aren't always a gauge of what editors like. They sign things they love all the time and fail to sell them, and pass on things others pick up and run with that are successful.

What springs to mind... Jon Evans getting over a hundred rejections. Simon Kernick: 300 (and he was a Richard and Judy pick last year). Ken Bruen, dropped by his UK agency years back.

I get the impression that your work is geared to a publisher like Bleak House - someone darker, prepared to be a bit riskier than mainstream. This is highly generalized, but a lot of agents think big/NYC. You need the right agent for you.

Anonymous said...

Three is a low number. You've got to get into the double digits at least.

On the other hand, I think there are ways to make an evil protag more appealing. I think interest is key - if your reader is interested in the protag, they'll read forever and be grateful to you. You can make an evil protag interesting without making him or her nice. Hannibal Lector comes to mind.

pattinase (abbott) said...

She's not evil so much as troubled, narcissistic, quirky, prickly but I think by the end, she's redeemed as we find out why. I think the hyper-focused lens on her may be the problem. She's alone in the world and her loneliness may be hard to take.
And it may be somewhere in between a mainstream novel and a crime novel. A tough sell. Thanks guys. You all rock.

Anonymous said...

Of course, there may be a million reasons, but... why not frontload the reasons for the characters mood problems?

Of course, this is advice on a book which I have not been allowed to actually see, but still...

pattinase (abbott) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Terrie Farley Moran said...

Patti,

I don't think the protag has to be nice. The protag should be engaging in some way so that people care what happens to her or want to see what mayhem she causes. Otherwise why read past chapter one?

How likable was Scarlett O'Hara?

Terrie

Anonymous said...

If you decide you have to change your character, remember that likeable, doesn't have to mean good. Think Parker or Flashman

pattinase (abbott) said...

An interesting distinction, Doug.
I think you have to climb inside her head for it to work. Although it's third person POV, it's a very claustrophobic third.
Engaging is a nice thing to strive for as Terrie notes. How about compelling or interesting? And how long are you willing to wait for a payoff? I just watched the movie MR. BROOKS and he was not at all nice and the movie wasn't a great or even very good one, but something kept me watching.

Karen Olson said...

I've had many people tell my my protag is too abrasive, uses too many four-letter words, is too cynical. But then there are those who love her. My agent and editor being two of them. Stick it out. This business is so subjective.

And in response to someone's comment here about how agents are looking to sell to big NYC publishers and not smaller ones that might take a quirkier protag: The agents want to make the most money they can and will start with those big publishers every time to meet that end. Can't fault them for that. And there could be an editor at a big house somewhere who will fall in love with your protag. I wouldn't necessarily rule out the big houses just yet. You're just starting the process...

pattinase (abbott) said...

This is all such great advice. Thanks for spending the time on it.

Josephine Damian said...

Patti: Consider the source. Take a good, hard look at the books these agents represent. Some say they rep thrillers, but prefer their thrills mild, more like romantic suspense. These agents might not be fans of the dark stuff - but there are quite a few who are.

If you're on PW, look up authors of books similar to yours and find out who reps them.

Ask yourself how does Jeff Lindsay make Dexter "likeable?" Highsmith/Ripley? How about "Blood Meridian?" "The Kid" M/C isn't likeable, but compared to the villain, "The Judge" - he's a saint.

Sometimes it's a matter of making the bad guy even worse if your protag is operating in a gray area of morality or likeability.

Or sometimes it takes just a few extra touches to make your character more interesting/intriguing/complex.

pattinase (abbott) said...

More good ideas. In the TV show, the actor who plays Dexter makes him likable. You know when he says he can't love, it's not true because of the way he looks at his sister, his girlfriend, her children.
I hope I conveyed that sort of idea through Violet's friend, who poopoos her negativity. But maybe I need more of that sort of interchange.

Josephine Damian said...

Patti: I wonder if your character were male, would those agents feel the same way?

Could be just plain sexism.

There's a great quote here about how gender, race and religion are not character in this interview with Greg Rucka (repped by David Hale Smith). He talks up female protags. Here's the link:

http://lasvegascitylife.com/articles/2008/01/24/ae/books/iq_19266915.txt

pattinase (abbott) said...

She's a loner, she's unable to commit, mistrustful of love, she's into her profession and sex more than anything else, takes drugs on occasion, drinks too much. Does sound like a pretty normal male in their thirties.

John McFetridge said...

Have you read any Denise Minna?

pattinase (abbott) said...

One novel. Isn't she amazing?

Sophie Littlefield said...

oh patti i'm hardly qualified to comment BUT i have to say that if *you* believe in your gal, hang tough a little longer.

As my mentor pointed out to me, it's the risk-takers who have the most to gain. (and lose, too, of course, but that's why we're endless fonts of creativity :)

I know this probably isn't your usual fare but take a look at The Closer and most especially Saving Grace, 2 new series featuring tough and hard-to-cotton-to heroines. This was recommended to me when I was trying to decide what to do with my own prickly heroine. While I don't *love* either show (I do love dexter and 6 feet under however) it definitely shows that there IS a place for a gal who wouldn't cut it in the mainstream.

I'm pulling for your heroine and I haven't even read her yet!!!!!

- sophie

and one final thought: someone mentioned denise mina. Just think about how many agents would take a pass on her. She is *special* - and that is exactly why we all love her!!!

Anonymous said...

Now that I approach my 65th birthday, I find that being "nicer" is not very generic. I find it to be quite exceptional, perhaps even courageous. Just a thought from someone who has never published anything nor even attempted to do so.